This week, I sit down with scholar, author, leader, and mom Urvashi Bhatnagar to talk about her educational journey and the importance of learning skills and knowledge from outside your career silo.
TRANSCRIPT
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
I think we need to recognize that careers are a journey. And they will most likely not retire in the same career that they set out in. And like many of us, they might study French history and end up getting into law and then getting into something else. And before you know it, you’ve got this wonderful journey. And so I would say to trust the journey,but just make sure you have helped them develop a business case around their interests, so that you can mitigate risk.
Sheila Akbar:
Hi, everybody,welcome back. Before we get to the topic of today’s podcast,actually, as a segue into that,I wanted to share a little bit of my own story, my journey of how I got here, not just to the podcast, but also to the President and COO of Signet education, my two PhDs and generally my academic and career journey, because they think it’ll help you understand why I asked today’s guest to join me for a conversation to share her own academic and career journey.So if you follow me on LinkedIn,or you’ve come to one of my webinars, you may have heard this story or pieces of it. And I’m not going to share all the details here. And we’ll save that for another episode. But the short story is, I grew up thinking I was going to be a doctor, my dad is a doctor, my brother became a doctor because he grew up the same way. So off,I went to college, I was a pre med, but I have this interest in poetry. And I learned from somebody I can’t remember who learn from somebody that you could go to med school without studying biology, I knew that I would have to do my pre med requirements. But I could major in something that I found really interesting and just wanted to learn about. And as a teenager,that felt like a very romantic ideal. And so when I went to college, I majored in Near Eastern languages. So I could learn the original language of the Persian poetry that I had fallen in love with. But I was doing my pre med requirements on the side. And I had just about finished all of my pre med requirements, when it was time to sign up for the MCAT. And I just, I couldn’t do it. Because I knew that if I did the MCAT, I would have invested so much in this pathway, that it would have been really hard for me to turn around and do something else.And that’s when I had my kind of moment of realization that this was actually my father’s dream for me, and not my own dream for myself, and oh my god, I have no idea what I dream for myself.But the reason I’m telling you this is is not to go into that which is certainly worthy of discussion. And I’m sure many parents have experienced something similar and your kids will certainly experience something similar. So it’s worth talking about. But the reason I bring it up is because this sort of misguided desire to become a doctor actually, has led me to a lot of success. Because I studied math at a very high level. I studied science at a pretty high level, and did well at it. And then I, you know,made my pivot. I didn’t know what I was going to do. And I just I went to Wall Street. And I learned a lot there. And then after Wall Street, I came back into academia to study poetry.And I learned so much there. And then I did my two PhDs and learned about teaching and writing, and really connecting deeply with the inner meaning of things. And my dissertation was on, this is an oversimplification it was on perception. And so all of these things have led to my success now there’s no question about it. In my mind, I learned skills, I learned about different fields, I learned about different career paths, I learned about the way the world works. I learned about connecting with people. And most importantly, I think, connecting with myself, and learning what I really like to do and witnessed how important it is to actually be able to reflect and connect in that way with things that mean something to you, and how to use that in your daily life and in your career plans. So that brings me back to today’s guest. She didn’t have the same journey but she has similar journey. She studied physical therapy at an extremely high level and pursued her curiosity to take her on, you know, an interesting path. And what she does now is really impactful.And it makes her very happy and she’s very successful. And she comes away from that journey,trying to share with others how important it is to learn in disciplines that are different from what you think you’re going to do, because that becomes your competitive advantage. Your toolbox, your skill set, helps you develop your unique abilities and perspective to have cross functional learning.So with that kind of long intro,I want to introduce our guests or Vichy Butler gar, she’s written a book called The sustainability scorecard, which is really a fascinating way of thinking about the business case for creating sustainable businesses from the ground up.And she’s just a tremendous voice in the space and a great leader and a great role model.And I thought she would be really fun to hear from so take a listen, and I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for joining us. I’m really excited to talk with you more about your career path and the sort of insights you have about what’s happening, what the challenges are and how you think we can navigate them. And I would love to start with sort of brief overview of what is your career path? What’s your story? How did you get to where you are today?
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
I definitely feel like I fell into what I’m doing now. And that’s surprising for someone that thought that,you know, they had their life figured out when I was a teenager, or when I was in my undergrad I thought oh, like I definitely know what my next steps are, I was one of those teenagers, I actually thought I would get an MD and then I didn’t know which field or service line within healthcare I would be a part of. But I was always really interested in endocrinology and neurology, and really early on, I was like, oh,it’s probably gonna be one of those two. I mean, I thought that far, like when I’m 32, I would have chosen between one of those two by now. But you know,as I went on in my profession,I, by the way, end up getting my undergrad in physical therapy,and got my doctorate in the same. And as I continued to practice, I thought about that MD, but then I started thinking about law, and ultimately ended up getting an MBA, and followed a very circuitous path to what I’m doing now. But I think it’s really been a journey of creativity. And I didn’t anticipate that I didn’t anticipate being open to various options, especially for my Personality, I love having control and being able to determine every next step by start out in analytics in business. And I love being able to forecast like all of my peers in analytics. So we love forecasting things and determining likelihood ratios.And so it was within my wheelhouse to love control. And to the extent that we can control things in my but I think what I’ve learned in consulting is to definitely be okay with ambiguity. And I’ve learned to actually enjoy it to not know how a problem will be solved,but to, to have confidence that it will be, and that I will be part of the solution, or my team will be part of the solution.And that we’re going to work on something meaningful. So I think, for the past eight to 10years, that’s been the driving force between my in my mindset,and therefore it has driven my career progression is really thinking creatively about how solutions can be applied in the industry broadly, and what’s new, what’s coming, what needs to be done? And how can I be a part of it?
Sheila Akbar:
Well, I know that part of your work is very exciting. And I definitely want to get to that. But before we speed ahead, since we’re talking to parents with teenagers, I want to go back to when you were17 years old, and understand,you know, what were the things that made you choose physical therapy, and then to do a doctorate in physical therapy,because that’s not, that’s not easy. And what it felt like to change going from a person who had all this planned out and a very clear career path in front of you to being someone who is more open to choosing something else. Tell us about that experience.
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Absolutely. I actually ended up doing my high school and undergrad in India.And so I kind of didn’t have an option as to what I was going to study in my undergrad. I was placed in a certain field and I did my undergrad in it. And I didn’t really develop a love. I think in hindsight, I can say this. Hindsight is 2020. And I don’t think I necessarily developed a love for physical therapy. But I absolutely love being meaningfully involved in people’s lives and adding quality to their years. And I really, really care about health care broadly. I had an X didn’t when I was five, and I had six or seven surgeries and physical therapy for 12 years, my hand was paralyzed and recovered through this amazing multidisciplinary team of doctors and various practitioners, the support of my family. And I was extremely lucky. So I think I always loved healthcare. But when I was studying physical therapy, I think I realized that I think I understood why I love healthcare, broadly. And I almost understood the whole ecosystem better. But I found that I wasn’t loving, physical therapy, but I didn’t know what the next thing would be. I just thought that perhaps this isn’t what’s going to be the end of my career. I can’t see myself doing this for 4050 years. But I love healthcare.
Sheila Akbar:
Yeah. Tell us about that. How long did you actually practice after you finished your doctorate? And then what was that lightbulb moment for you to figure out what’s next?
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Yeah, I actually got my doctorate while practicing. And so it was a busy time. But I practiced for about six to seven years. And during that time, I was really being creative. I was in my 20s. And we were just discussing before this call about how we’re so creative, and you don’t have perhaps as many, you know, bills to pay or things like that. And lives are relatively simple,more simple without kids. So I was thinking very creatively.And I was really curious about what other functions within healthcare looked like, I didn’t truly understand the entire claims process. And I didn’t understand so many different things about the healthcare ecosystem. And I was like, went to my boss and said, Hey, I don’t need more money. I just want to do more stuff. And I’m pretty sure she couldn’t believe her ears. But she was like,great. Yeah, whatever you want,do it. It’s definitely a lesson in there for, you know,negotiating better? Having more value for your skill sets and your input. But at the time, I wasn’t thinking that way. So I ended up actually being part of this very strategic growth team.within my organization that grew the number of clinics from two to seven for a regional practice, became involved in management from an all manner of things a lot of my work, was it for the doctorate, as well as for management was very data heavy, because we would pull information out of EMRs and analyze it and that kind of thing, ended up teaching myself,our and whatnot. So I realized that I was having a bigger impact, which is what drew me to management, that I was having a bigger impact by way of this strategic, almost 50,000 foot view level for that time versus one on one patient care. And so I ended up applying to business school and got my MBA. And during that time, I ended up working for a data analytics and data science firm, and then went on to PwC, and EY. And all of those experiences were amazing.But it was almost like the limitation of one role led to the next like, I’d realized I was loving data science, and it’s extremely illuminating. And you can figure out answers, and if you know what question to ask, and you keep refining your question. But then I realized that I wasn’t able to strategically guide firms, and I was leaving them with incredible insights. And I wasn’t able to really push a certain initiative or own initiative. And so I ended up getting into strategy consulting, so that I could be more involved on the tip of the spirit, so to speak. Yeah. And I think it was that journey, I think it was being part of the strategy. And I joke sometimes with people that I was probably the only mission driven consultant in Big Four setup that cared less about what I was making at the time and really cared about, like, how the market was evolving? And who’s merging with who and who’s buying who and why are they buying them? And what market? Is that going to give them access to? And once they get access to that market? How are they going to help the vulnerable populations, I was like, I was always overly concerned about vulnerable populations. And I remember my peers or superiors always telling me, you know, you need a better business case around vulnerable populations,because at that time, there’s value based care, which is just a contract method and healthcare wasn’t a big deal. And it wasn’t being leveraged as much as it is now. And so they used to tell me how, you know, you should really figure out a way to monetize this so that you can have a stronger business case around vulnerable populations and really drive cash into that patient population so that you upfront preventative care, and all kinds of things that’s required. Of course, the market has, thankfully since evolved.But that journey of like, seven,eight years in consulting, led me to think very strategically and critically about the future of wellness. What does that mean for my son? And what does that mean for just the future of humanity? And why is Elon Musk trying to leave Earth so badly?
Sheila Akbar:
Yeah. Good question. You know, just in, in hearing you tell us that short story, I heard how much you lit up talking about the strategy aspects, the scale of your impact, you know, versus the one on one patient care. And the questions that just seem to maybe have kept Nying at you that even though there wasn’t a business case, for supporting vulnerable populations, at that time, you couldn’t stop thinking about it. And what I’m hearing in this and of course, I have a particular lens that I hear everybody’s stories through. But what I’m hearing in this is that you found a way to listen to what lit you up. And you kept moving towards that. Right, even if it didn’t mean more money,but it was meaningful to you.And that’s what you were chasing. Does that sound right?
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
It absolutely sounds right. I’ve thought about this often. And as I’ve evaluated next steps in my career, the, you know, your role, and what it allows you to do. And the compensation associated with it is always a big consideration. And this is one of the things that I think really kind of hit home when I was during my MBA, I realized that without making a really strong business case, and without quantifying impact nonprofits, we’re not going to be able to fundraise appropriately to the levels that they need, and for profits are not going to be able to justify that investment, whether it’s in a nonprofit initiative, or whether it’s in a fund or a portfolio, or whatever it is,whether it’s a service line, and your organization that you’re channeling money to, the impact needs to be quantified, and everybody needs to speak about it in a common language. And that common language ends up being dollars, because we vote with our dollars. And so I think, for me, it has been extremely important to one build an army around the impact and to communicate the impact, to be able to scale the impact. But the second is to always make sure that there’s a very robust business case around it.Otherwise, it becomes a great thing that somebody did at some time. And it just wasn’t repeated, and it wasn’t scaled.
Sheila Akbar:
Yeah, one of my sales coaches, a great mentor of mine always says no money, no mission. And that’s a great way to sum that up. Well, I think that gives me a nice segue to ask about this book you wrote,because we are talking about quantifying impact. There’s no better way to do that, then a scorecard. We use scorecards all across Signet, we use it obviously to run our business to manage our people. We even we don’t call it this. We even have a scorecard that we use with students where we’re measuring on different kind of verticals,their self reported confidence,the change in their grades, of course, those easily quantifiable things. But confidence is a part of it,their relationship to friends and family, how much they’re sleeping, things like that, that really do impact their success in the thing that we’re trying to impact, which is their academic performance. Right. So I’m a big believer in the scorecard. You wrote this great book called The sustainability scorecard. I am reading it, I have not finished it, but I am reading it. I’m loving it. And it came out of work you did during your MBA, right? Tell us a little bit about the book.
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Yeah, I was so grateful. During my MBA classes. One of my classes was with Dr. Paul Anastas, who is my co author, in this book, and he’s a giant in his field in chemistry. And he’s focused a lot on product redesign throughout his career, but really, from an organic chemistry lens to reorganize molecules, such that you can create a completely benign by design product. So it’s inherently sustainable. It’s not sustainable, because you created a business model around it. And by the way, those things are important too. But these products are designed such that they’re benign to start with.And at the end of their life,they’re non toxic to human beings and the environment. And so I took his class and was considering dropping it and went to speak with him and said, You know, I love your class. I love these ideas. I think they’re great. But I think there’s two things missing. One is that there’s a big public health messaging that is missing in not only the climate change narrative, but in the work that you’re doing. And second, I don’t understand how this can fit in. I don’t see the business case. I don’t know how to build the army around it, how to turn this into something that will come out of a lab and be commercialized. He told me that I should quit complaining and start joining him in his work,and it’s the best advice I’ve ever received. It was an incredible invitation. So I’ve published with him and a number of researchers as well. It’s really important for me to understand wellness, product design, health equity, supply chains, the healthcare impact of climate change. So all these factors are studies that I’ve worked on with other incredible researchers. But then it was amazing to take it forward and actually almost approach this book from like a private equity or venture lens even and to think about how this can be leveraged in large organizations like fortune five hundreds or smaller organizations, like startups that are looking to disrupt the economy and the products that are out there in the economy. So I’ve spent about six years writing it, and during that time, really, really studied the market and tried to put our arms around this space,what it looks like what it could mean for the future of wellness,and what are the current gaps and how sustainability is approached in the market. And we realized that there’s a lot of research out there, but it needs to be brought to the forefront and leveraged by industry professionals. And also the industry lacks a scorecard or a way for all executive leaders to communicate impact with each other. Such that I mean, we’re in such a scorecard rich environment, but you find really granular ones, or you find some that are so high level that it’s hard to really understand whether you’re making good investment or not, and whether you should channel resources behind that certain investment.So we came up with a scorecard and sustainability that marries the science with the business decisions, and came up with four pillars of sustainability that we’ve categorized our KPIs under, it’s meant to be a flexible scorecard. So we don’t prescribe that every single firm in the market, leverage this.But we we do prescribe that you measure something like what we talk about in waste prevention and use of renewable resources and things like that. So yeah,that’s the aim of the scorecard.
Sheila Akbar:
Yeah. And it’s really great, because it is for all industries, not just ones that are creating products that we normally think, you know,that should be sustainable, or wouldn’t that be wonderful if this were a more sustainable?Good? Now, I’m guessing that regular listeners of my podcast are like, Okay, why are we why are we talking about? And I want to just be really clear about this. One of the reasons I was so excited to have you on here is because I think you’re setting such an amazing example,for young people and parents alike, that pursuing what’s meaningful to you, at a very rigorous level, right. It’s not just like, oh, this was fun, I did a little bit of it, like you went for it, with whatever you were doing, you did it to the backs, but you saw opportunities, throughout your career experience, your educational journey, even to combine things from different fields of your interest, to do the thing that was meaningful to which is to have an impact at scale. Right. And I think it’s such a fantastic example of how,you know, success is not a linear path. And everybody has a unique journey and a unique set of strengths that will help guide them on that journey. And it’s sort of like what you said at the beginning, you don’t really know how the problem is going to be solved, you don’t know where you’re gonna end up.But you have faith that it’s going to happen. Because if you are pursuing those things that are meaningful to you, and having the kind of impact that you want to have, then by necessity, you know, you should be fulfilled. And also, if this is an impact kind of driven thing. It’s something that the world needs, it’s a problem that you can solve. Right? So before we started recording you, you use this great phrase, I think,to say something similar to what what I was saying that cross functional pathways lead to innovative careers.
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Yeah,absolutely. So I think this was another sort of like passive learning that I had. But in order to just pass that class that I was taking, or even think more creatively about, like my consulting engagements, or this book, I was often required to research areas that were not in my space, we were often looking at CPG firms and understanding their strategies and applying them to healthcare. Or if I was in on a CPG engagement, I was often looking at oil and gas or something else. And there was a culture of constantly learning.And if you think about it, it’s just that generative AI it has come out more recently, but this technology boom and it permeating all areas of our life has been around for quite a while and it kind of goes back to this insight. One of my friends is a professor and teaches a class on zombies. And one of his great insights is that for previous generations,if you notice zombies, we used to walk very slowly, but they were always coming at you. And now in movies today, zombies are very fast, and they are more vicious, but they are able to deploy their poison rather quickly. And they’re also able to leave the scene of the crime very quickly. So it’s also about speed. And so when I thought about how to, quote unquote,beat the speed of either technology, or what’s going to help individuals or myself stay relevant in my career going forward, I often thought that I can’t just bring healthcare to the table, I can’t just bring past experience or what you were able to solve for client A or client B, or things like that is to really know different subjects and to be able to connect learnings from them. For this book, I studied so much organic chemistry that I remember telling a chemistry researcher, look, the formation of benzene gets really complicated really fast. And I thought, Oh, my God, who am I become, I’m telling this clear professional in organic chemistry that we can’t leverage his insight in this way, because it won’t work, we have to find another way. And I don’t think I could have done that 10 years ago. But I think collaborating with people have intentionally pursued cross functional learnings. It creates a pathway by which you are almost disrupting yourself. You’re you’re almost serving as the control group to yourself to say, Yeah, I think this idea is great. But will it work here?And is there something in another area that I can combine with this, and that will make my idea more robust, and that kind of thing. And so it allows you to bring more to the table, and come up with better solutions and actually innovate? A problem from more than one lens?
Sheila Akbar:
Yeah. And I think that’s only going to become more and more important as technology as the zombies continue to speed up.
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Yeah,exactly. Yeah.
Sheila Akbar:
They’re coming in,they’re coming faster. And I,I’ve been telling people, you know, by the time I finish this sentence, there are probably new, faster zombies that will be deployed. So let’s connect that then to education. Because we know this workplace is changing.Yet, people of our age, maybe of our generation, let’s say we have some pretty fixed ideas about what is a good career,what we want our children to be able to just jump into straight from college, how much we want them to know, what their major is going to be or what they’re going to do with their lives before they even go off to college. And it is, you know,really unrealistic. I mean,these are 16 17 year olds,right. But what do they know about anything, including themselves, not just the world and what work is like, but also what our educational systems are built to prepare them for?doesn’t exist anymore, right?It’s in a different form, if it exists at all. So what is your advice then to parents? Or just,you know, even the young people who are moving through their education? How can they prepare themselves to have that kind of cross functional skill set?
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Yeah, wow, I have a great deal of appreciation for parents and I have a two year old, and I have a zero year old. So I’m nowhere near the career conversation age yet. I can only imagine how challenging it is because it was challenging for us and our parents. And so I’m sure it’s only magnified. And I’ll contrast this with also. I mean,I grew up in India, and between the US and India, but primarily in India. And it was really expected that what you kind of fall into by way of your undergrad education is what you will absolutely continue to do forever. And you will probably retire in that field. And there aren’t any avenues to change it.And so even though there was more flexibility afforded to me,in particular, since I continued my career here in the US, it’s still similar, right? People don’t deviate too far from where they started out, generally speaking. And, of course, now we have a lot more innovators and a lot of people who are breaking the traditional career mold. But it’s interesting, because whenever I speak with leaders,and especially women leaders,they often talk about how they fell into it, and how cross functional learning played a big role in it. And I often think about what to advise parents because that advice will be for me in a decade or so. And I think what I would suggest is to be open to various opportunities and to wholeheartedly pursue cross functional learning. And so sure, go ahead and do AP Chem. St. But also make sure that you’re studying the arts and music and pursuing all of them with as much rigor and passion as the other while sleeping. And I know this is hard, it sounds crazy.Obviously, you track all of this, which is insane that kids today are bearing all of this burden. But I would look for as much cross functional learning in their education as we can.And they might have areas in their career where there might be job loss, or they might not have a business case around the idea that they went to market with, and thought would absolutely work. I guess at some point, we can’t prevent all of that. But I think we need to recognize that careers are a journey, and they will most likely not retire in the same career that they set out in. And like many of us, they might study French history and ended up getting into law and then getting into something else. And before you know it, you’ve got this wonderful journey. And so I would say to trust the journey,but just make sure you have helped them develop a business case around their interests, so that you can mitigate risk. But I do think that one of the biggest predictors of success,however you define it, outside of very important things like health and wellness, and being able to have financial stability, and that kind of thing is going to be how much you can bring to the table. And you can’t bring all that much to the table if you’re siloed. And you’ve gone very deep into one area or one segment of the economy, and not been able to learn about proxy industries that’s around you, or even ones very far away from you where you might be missing critical solutions.
Sheila Akbar:
So I couldn’t agree more. And I think to put it really simply is just don’t have tunnel vision. Yeah, right,you were saying you turn from somebody who had a very clear plan and like to control things to somebody who was really open to opportunities, experience,new learnings, because you recognize it’s all really valuable, and it’s only going to make your ideas and your impact that much greater. Right. So I’m thinking, you know, you and I are both of South Asian descent,there was a lot of cultural,let’s say, pressure towards, you know, becoming a doctor or an engineer, you know, one of these sorts of things. And when I see parents now, who are, you know,really pushing their kid in that specific direction, and saying these other things don’t matter,it doesn’t matter that you have a creative outlet in your life,it doesn’t matter that you have opportunities to socialize, you should be studying, you know,that kind of siloing, right?Even within just the high school education, not taking advantage of all of those other experiences that are open to you, while you’re pursuing your education can really start your growth.
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Right,exactly. And also, I think it can expose you to so many more risks as a human being, if you’re siloed. And you’re only used to either understanding a certain area of science or whatever it is, and you are dedicated to it so much that it’s all you’re doing, and you don’t have a ton of friends or you don’t have a creative outlet, and you don’t have passions that you were able to pursue, it may be even more detrimental to your health.Right. And I think about technology, I think it’s amazing, but it’s also a risk multiplier in the future. And I think about my son, and how VR is already prevalent today. And I fear that I don’t want him to get lost in some virtual reality world, if he’s not satisfied with his real world. And there’s so many more avenues for escape for our kids today than there were for when I was growing up,or we were growing up. And so I know that there is so much pressure on this young generation to achieve and accomplish and fulfill all these things, not just from their parents just from interest rate in the economy and all of these factors. But if they don’t maximize their time outside and enjoy nature, and enjoy connecting with other human beings and have a great social network, and have avenues for creativity, their health and wellness, I believe will be so impacted that they will not be able to achieve what their parents wanted of them or what they wanted out of their careers because they just won’t have as much to give. And that’s such a loss to themselves and their community because they’re all capable of so much.
Sheila Akbar:
I think that might be A great place to leave it.Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing all of these insights. You’re such an interesting career path. And I think an interesting perspective on things because I do see the data scientist in you. And I love that. I love that perspective. So if people want to learn more about what you do and your book, how can they do that?
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Absolutely.Well, you can buy it on Amazon or Barnes and Nobles, or wherever you buy your book. And we can leave the link to the book in the comments when we post. So that’s the best place to buy it.
Sheila Akbar:
Okay, great. If they’re interested in having you speak or listening to you speak where? Where can they find you?
Unknown:
Yeah, if you’re interested in speaking to contact me for speaking engagements, or otherwise, for advisory, feel free to reach out to me on my website. But our book is connected to an overall project that is related to creating green and sustainable systems. So you can reach out to us at www.greenovation.com through the contact us form.
Sheila Akbar:
I’ll make sure that’s in the show notes as well. Okay, obviously, thank you so much. Have a great afternoon.
Urvashi Bhatnagar:
Thank you.
Sheila Akbar:
Well, I really think Urvashi for joining us and sharing her story and her learnings, I hope you all can benefit from it in some way.Whether that’s in your life, or in thinking about your kids academic pas, it does not hurt them to learn things that are outside of a specific area of focus that may end up being their career. Of course, they may not know yet. So learning broadly and learning at a high level is a great thing. And I actually look forward to coming back and sharing more of my story on the podcast. If you don’t already, please follow me on LinkedIn and hope to see you next time. Thanks.Podcast:
